Curse

tmakinen · Oct 14, 2009, 06:07 AM // 06:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by DreamWind

So your "solution" to the problem is to make all these complicated changes (that we know will never happen), when the simple solution is to remove the REASON for exploiting (or better yet never have introduced the reason to begin with)?

Actually, my point was that there exists a huge array of solutions with varying degrees of generality but despite that people act like the problems were intractable. A specific problem is mentioned, I give a specific solution. You want a general solution? I can give one:

Make all intangible (untradeable) PvP benefits into a zero-sum game. Make all tangible (tradeable) PvP benefits time capped so that they cannot be acquired beyond a set, moderate rate (like the daily Balth faction quota for the Zaishen Challenge). The cap periods should be chosen individually to match the given game formats. Loot scaling for the PvP crowd

DreamWind · Oct 14, 2009, 06:14 AM // 06:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by tmakinen

A specific problem is mentioned, I give a specific solution.

Yes...but those solutions are overly complicated given the situation. There is a much simpler solution.

tmakinen · Oct 14, 2009, 06:22 AM // 06:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by DreamWind

There is a much simpler solution.

Yes, the one that I gave in my previous post. However, it would not be feasible to implement it at this point of the life cycle of the game. I agree with you that the most important point of this discussion is the concern about whether ANet learned the right things from GW1, because if they did then they can implement it the right way from day one in GW2 without half the player base ragequitting.

DreamWind · Oct 14, 2009, 06:50 AM // 06:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by tmakinen

I agree with you that the most important point of this discussion is the concern about whether ANet learned the right things from GW1, because if they did then they can implement it the right way from day one in GW2 without half the player base ragequitting.

I think it is much deeper than that. The playerbase is not ragequitting because they enjoy this type of thing, and that in itself is a problem. Anet will give us more because people enjoy it. It is already known that they haven't learned.

We the minority are sitting here in this thread talking about RR being a problem, yet HB has 60 districts with it and 1 without it. To ArenaNet, HB is the problem that needs to be removed and whatever is causing RR is the solution.

So we can sit here all night and talk solutions to RR and claim RR is the problem, or we can realize that Anet is introducing abusive things into their game and allowing the players to exploit their game, and this trend is very likely to continue into GW2.

zwei2stein · Oct 14, 2009, 09:12 AM // 09:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by DreamWind

So we can sit here all night and talk solutions to RR and claim RR is the problem, or we can realize that Anet is introducing abusive things into their game and allowing the players to exploit their game, and this trend is very likely to continue into GW2.

It is more of thing that exploiting yields rewards. Rewards that were supposed to take week, months or even years of 'normal' gameplay.

Rewards that are nearly impossible dues to commitment required, yet desirable enough to make masses shout 'gimme!'. Hence, people jump every opportunity to bypass supposed reward schedule.

cyberjanet · Oct 14, 2009, 09:25 AM // 09:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by Karate Jesus

I still don't understand why people are suggesting "fixes" for RR day or HB in general.

For the third time, they're removing HB. It doesn't matter. We'll get one more RR day MAYBE. It's not going to asplode GW for there to be 1 more RR day.

Let it go, people.

So the fact they're going to remove HB suddenly makes cheating moral?

Cheating is cheating is cheating.
You may get away with it, but you remain a cheat.
If that's something you feel proud of, you have a problem.

Chocobo1 · Oct 14, 2009, 09:36 AM // 09:36

I'd laugh if people got punished for it. It would be hilarious, not to mention the most amount of work Anet would have done for well over a year.

dunky_g · Oct 14, 2009, 09:39 AM // 09:39

you shouldnt need RR day to make money, or keys.

Keys should be aquired through pvp play imo, considering how you are meant to obtain them, it was meant to be for pvp players to make some cash or use up the balth faction they had left over after getting all unlocks, and now all the pve players are coming in and getting an easy stack of keys in a day.

And if you are a PvE'er, you should be able to make money easily without having to cheat the system.

kupp · Oct 14, 2009, 10:05 AM // 10:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chocobo1

I'd laugh if people got punished for it. It would be hilarious, not to mention the most amount of work Anet would have done for well over a year.

I wouldn't be surprised if we did, but the worst I can see them doing is giving people a slap in the wrist. Like I said way earlier, does anyone remember that time when Anet banned all the HFFF botters for 2 weeks instead of an instant perma-ban, because they 'felt like the title was too hard to accomplish by normal means, wich forced people to bot'. 2 weeks for botting ffs. I don't see them doing much right now, and even temporarily banning something like 7-10k people would be a gigantic dumb move by Anet IMO.

DreamWind · Oct 14, 2009, 10:27 AM // 10:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by kupp

I don't see them doing much right now, and even temporarily banning something like 7-10k people would be a gigantic dumb move by Anet IMO.

You are right that temp banning would be a dumb move...perma banning would be the correct move. Exploiting is exploiting. There is no difference between RR and duping in this regard. If Anet knowingly allows people to do it (and quite honestly encourages it by giving rewards), they are supporting exploitation of their game.

kupp · Oct 14, 2009, 10:39 AM // 10:39

And Anet has a history of beeing light on the banhammer judging by the botters issue. But you're going way too far by comparing RR to duping and exploiting, because no one is taking advantage of a glitch in the game, and it's not any different than rolling a pvp char for repeatedly collecting the zcombat reward. Match manipulation, yes. Though the last time that happened, all they did was take away [rawr] and the opponent guild's gold capes for a month.

In any case, banning a serious chunck of the active, long time players on a declining game due to something that's gonna be deleted in a few weeks time at best, doesn't seem rational or wise.

Akaraxle · Oct 14, 2009, 10:54 AM // 10:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by kupp

In any case, banning a serious chunck of the active, long time players on a declining game due to something that's gonna be deleted in a few weeks time at best, doesn't seem rational or wise.

But I'd totally do it just for the lulz.

Sankt Hallvard · Oct 14, 2009, 11:09 AM // 11:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by DreamWind

Yes they are removing it, so this thread is mostly worthless. But I think the events here speak to a greater position I have...that it shows how Anet manages things.

They introduce a problem into their game (titles), and instead of removing the problem (because too many people like it), they try to fix everything AROUND the problem (obviously to no avail).

Then they introduce another problem (HB), and instead of fixing the problem (because they can't), they remove it from the game (because not as many people like it).

It is a bit humorous to think about in this way.

Pretty much the same way they handled the buff to jagged strike and fox strike. Combined they spawned a meta of R/A's abusing quick sin attacks, ranger expertise and block stances. Instead of dealing with the problem(stupid buff to sin skills) they fixed nearly everything around the problem: stance ending on melee attack, death blossom recharge prolonged.

It is a bit humorous to think about in this way. Or just sad?

Sankt Hallvard · Oct 14, 2009, 11:20 AM // 11:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by DreamWind

You are right that temp banning would be a dumb move...perma banning would be the correct move. Exploiting is exploiting. There is no difference between RR and duping in this regard. If Anet knowingly allows people to do it (and quite honestly encourages it by giving rewards), they are supporting exploitation of their game.

Let's hope you never get a job as chief of police in a dictatorial regime. Death penalty for shoplifting ftw?

Sankt Hallvard · Oct 14, 2009, 11:56 AM // 11:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by traversc

I think /roll is much more similar than you think (though not to disparage your analysis of RR). /roll was actually very, very common, especially in the lower ranks. When z-quests came out, /roll exploded naturally. Actually, HB z-quest was the reason /roll got removed, IIRC.

Actually, I'd say that /roll grew much faster than RR did. Given more time, the "range" would have developed naturally, and similarly, cheaters would push true /roll-ers down in rank, simultaneously, they would rise in rank and have to tank to get back down.

As martin pointed out, you don't need rank information to approach an equilibrium. You just need a way to make the game non-symmetrical, which color designation and /roll both do.

The difference I think is mostly psychological. With /roll, it feels like you always have a chance to win the game, even if it's always 50%. It doesn't feel so much like you are just giving up, as with RR. This could explain why it took so long for RR to catch on.

I'm willing to admit that /roll probably was more widespread and executed than I initially thought. I never played /roll so I'm not sure how much time was actually put into a) setting up the agreement in each case between the players b) executing the command and determining the winner c) any extra time spent on coercion/manipulation.

From a strictly rational point of view(and disregarding the discomforts of cheating your opponent) it would be optimal to spend a little extra time to see if you could psyche out your opponent even after losing the roll. The reason is that you have already spent a significant amount of time getting into the match: Say 30 seconds waiting for a match, 10 seconds countdown timer, 20 seconds initial pre-match timer. So if you map out it will take you at least 60 seconds for your next 50/50 chance at getting a win. Spending 5-10 seconds extra might be beneficial or at least appear to be beneficial if the odds of your opponent mapping out are high. And if your opponent is rational they will be, he might not be mentally prepared to actually play out the match with uncertain outcome. Even if he was cheated it may seem wiser to map out, forfeit the win but at least only spend 60 seconds for his next chance rather than a 4-6 minutes match. Of course the same incentive to play the chicken game applies to him, he might suspect you are bluffing(in this case, rightly so) and will wait an extra amount of time to find out before finally conceding.

All in all the /roll boils down to a system of more uncertain variables and where several actions might prove favourable depending on your opponent etc. The problem with your rank rising can be more easily remedied by doing a chain of resigns, this way you skip the pre-match timer and the effort of having to deal with /roll - you're saving time. The RR system deals much more effectively with deviations from the "rules" and is thus a more efficient farming method. How much more output is gained in reality I can't hope to calculate. I would guess it could mean the difference of having 40 districts with /roll vs having 60 districts of RR, ie. an increase in efficiency by 50%. Obviously the difference could also be almost negligible like 1%, it might even be the opposite given that this "psychological factor" you mention about people actually getting a kick out of the thrill of /roll.

Now I'm putting this to rest. I understand your point completely and for all practical purposes /roll is very much alike RR. I just found myself intrigued by this beautiful, intrinsic value of RR making it appear to have a life of its own.

Also I think we(or maybe just me) are the only ones discussing this very theoretical aspect of it.

Zahr Dalsk · Oct 14, 2009, 12:13 PM // 12:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by dunky_g

And if you are a PvE'er, you should be able to make money easily without having to cheat the system.

ArenaNet does not want to do this because one of the groups they're juggling are the long-time players with lots of money, who do not wish to see other players gain money.

That said, if you want easy money, go out and do your Vanquisher title track (fun and easy) then take all the money you made from it, along with any max weapon components, and any elite tomes, and any other valuable things, and start selling them off. Once you've done that you should have plenty enough money for whatever it is you wanted to buy.

This won't make you anywhere near as rich as the aforementioned players, but it will give you enough, and you get to do it while having fun.

gone · Oct 14, 2009, 12:16 PM // 12:16

I wonder how Anet feels about getting bent over by it's player-base, because, I already know how it's players feel about it.
"it OK to exploit/abuse it, it's being taken out"

the herd mentality sure has changed around here. or. wait. no, it prolly hasn't. it's just showing it's true colors. I'm awaiting the outcome of this. there are a few spl0its dying to be used, and this RR day abuse just might be a get out of jail free card.

-and remember, these are the same thousands that are going to be 'our' GW2 populace. the 'if you can't beat them, join them' attitude is slowly soaking in. that 's bad.

/edit
as stated, cheating is cheating is cheating. but now if no action is taken, cheating is, well, allowed.

zwei2stein · Oct 14, 2009, 12:29 PM // 12:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zahr Dalsk

ArenaNet does not want to do this because one of the groups they're juggling are the long-time players with lots of money, who do not wish to see other players gain money.

I think that you are just paranoid over there.

Those people are minority of minority, I would doubt that there were more than 100 people with 'old money' ever.

They are exactly the same kind of people who either played hardcore, got a lot of stuff and moved on already or people who are way too attached to game to quit, well, over anything sans server shutdown.

There is no way devs would even consider them as group that needs special protection. Besides, people who achieve something in mmo and then demand noone else should get it are generally despised by devs and rest of community alike.

own age myname · Oct 14, 2009, 12:48 PM // 12:48

The next RR day is Sunday, if anyone is interested. So it should only be 1 more day of RR and hopefully the following thursday Sealed Deck comes in.

Gun Pierson · Oct 14, 2009, 01:26 PM // 13:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by own age myname

The next RR day is Sunday, if anyone is interested. So it should only be 1 more day of RR and hopefully the following thursday Sealed Deck comes in.

Thanks and yes absolutely, I want to experience this myself. Never did RR so far but I have a spare account that's rotting away and I wouldn't mind if it gets banned.

What's the average amount of z-keys you can make in an hour?